tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post1009387485468928718..comments2023-10-15T05:20:00.675-06:00Comments on Entropy Production: Synthesis of Fat in the LiverRobert McLeodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05270962906437456350noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-66536075477457805502009-08-11T06:59:30.676-06:002009-08-11T06:59:30.676-06:00Revisited the site too late. May be we can continu...Revisited the site too late. May be we can continue the conversation.<br /><br />During this past couple of months I have learnt a lot.<br /><br />My question was specifically for the fat and carb mix that has been talked about in this article.<br /><br />Indians have been surviving on a vegetarian diet for a long time. I have come to the conclusion that it has been based on the copious amount of dairy products we used to consume.<br /><br />Now with Refined oil, this has been lost. Now indians are among the worst affected.<br /><br />I have added a lot of ghee (butter oil) to our diet, and have given up on refined oil and fructose completely. Interspersed with intermittent fasting, and anaerobic exercise, it allows the glycogen stores to be depleted.<br /><br />This has been helping us get our liver back in shape. I understand about the other deficiency, and am getting them from the US to supplement.<br /><br />We are already supplementing fish oil, D3 and K2. Zinc, B12, Magnesium and Iodine are still in the pipeline.<br /><br />I am expecting after all these, our diet should get us in a better shape.<br /><br />I would be glad if Zinc supplementation can cure the meat aversion. But I am not so sure.Anand Srivastavahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15616369007370348265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-5856142265766277032009-05-22T10:22:36.124-06:002009-05-22T10:22:36.124-06:00anandsr:
Vegetarianism has a number of nutritiona...anandsr:<br /><br />Vegetarianism has a number of nutritional challenges to overcome. As an aside, an aversion to meat has been linked to zinc-deficiency by some. <br /><br />The main problem I see with vegetarianism is getting sufficient protein (with an appropriately balanced amino acid profile) and simultaneously sufficient micro-nutrients (especially retinol and B12), the omega-3 fatty acids (EPA and DHA), and minerals. I think it's generally possible to do one but not the other. Hence, the association between vegetarianism and 'failure to thrive.' I believe that vegetarians should supplement. <br /><br />The vegetarian trio of grains, legumes, and squash can provide sufficient amino acids if eaten in large quantities (except for taurine), but they are otherwise empty calories. They are also the source of some of the most common food allergies/intolerances that can damage the human gut. E.g. wheat, peanuts, soy, etc. A damaged gut will not uptake fat well, nor fat-soluble vitamins, amongst a great number of other problems. This can lead to greasy stool and other intestinal discomfort. <br /><br />In general, grains and legumes require substantial treatment to make them more digestible to humans. This reference,<br /><br /><A HREF="http://www.rebuild-from-depression.com/resources/book/Chapter13.pdf" REL="nofollow">Amanda Rose, Grains and Legumes</A>provides instruction on how to do so.<br /><br />Dairy, if tolerated, provides a solid source of dietary fat and animal-source micro-nutrients. Goat and sheep milk protein may be more easily tolerated than cow milk protein.<br /><br />There are a number of good animal fats available to vegetarians: olive, avocado, some nuts (i.e. macadamia) if properly stored, coconut, palm. Avoid processed oils (i.e. stick to expeller pressed, extra-virgin oils).Robert McLeodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270962906437456350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-27265276160523539152009-05-22T03:28:28.060-06:002009-05-22T03:28:28.060-06:00My question is "What would a vegetarian do?". They...My question is "What would a vegetarian do?". They might be misguided souls but what is the best they can do within their beliefs.<br /><br />I would think the most important thing to do is to extend the nightly fasting phase to as long as possible.<br /><br />This means that avoiding carbs in the night. So I guess eating some high fat vegetable would be ideal.<br /><br />In the day time they have to get some proteins in them, so I think mixing lots of fat with their high carb meal of grains and legumes. If fat is not mixed we tend to get hungry very fast.<br /><br />Eating meat is not an option as it is nauseating. Eggs and Meat are sometimes fine.<br /><br />What is your opinion?Anand Srivastavahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15616369007370348265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-18948164645039565492009-05-05T15:35:00.000-06:002009-05-05T15:35:00.000-06:00Braesikalla:
I don't think lipoproteins amalgamat...Braesikalla:<br /><br />I don't think lipoproteins amalgamate other lipoproteins directly in the blood -- that's the job of adipose tissue and other organs, like the liver. <br /><br />When insulin is high muscle doesn't absorb lipid particles from the blood but adipose tissue does. High circulating trigs is usually associated with insulin resistance.Robert McLeodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270962906437456350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-17269631645630245382009-05-02T05:20:00.000-06:002009-05-02T05:20:00.000-06:00Fascinating article, Robert!
One question, though....Fascinating article, Robert!<br />One question, though.<br /><br />You state that "typically the total contribution of liver-synthesized triglycerides (de novo lipogenesis) to the total number of triglycerides in the blood stream (i.e. VLDL) is relatively small, on the order of 10 %."<br /><br />Does that mean the rest of triglycerides in the VLDL particle ist not from DNL but from dietary fat which was not absorbed from tissue when it was circulating in chylomicrons?Braesikallahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990364313763982344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-77867811498826930292009-04-25T12:07:00.000-06:002009-04-25T12:07:00.000-06:00Scott W:
The liver maintains an emergency reserve...Scott W:<br /><br />The liver maintains an emergency reserve of glycogen, just as the muscles do. It's just a question of getting the endocrine system to say, "I've burned off enough carbohydrate that I'm ready for more, now let's switch to using fat stores." Quaffing sugary sports drinks during exercise is more what I'm suggesting should be avoided.<br /><br />Joseph:<br /><br />I was more thinking of diet pop when I made that statement. Coffee is much more than just caffeine, and some of the other chemicals in it are known to enhance insulin sensitivity. You could try switching to decaf if you are stuck at a given weight. Alcohol is more likely to be a problem. The fact is that alcohol is more potent than fructose for fatty liver disease. Again, consider removing it for awhile and see if it helps. Above all try not to stress out over small aspects of your diet.<br /><br />klowcarb:<br /><br />Glucose is perfectly safe in moderate quantities in insulin sensitive individuals. I'm aware that the low-carb community in general is fairly ideological but I'm not interested in playing that game.Robert McLeodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270962906437456350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-64167354959326024492009-04-24T13:40:00.000-06:002009-04-24T13:40:00.000-06:00That is why I am ZC, zero carb. There are no benef...That is why I am ZC, zero carb. There are no benefits and no use for carbohydrates in humans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-88142435971678148422009-04-24T11:08:00.000-06:002009-04-24T11:08:00.000-06:00Great couple of articles. Followed links from Ric...Great couple of articles. Followed links from Richard at Free the Animal. Been here a couple time before though. Have to visit more often.<br /><br />My questions would be then I shouldn't drink coffee with my breakfast of stuff like 4 eggs fried in butter and a couple sausages or have wine with my ribeyes? Is there any data or guesses as to how long you should wait to consume the liver intensive substances such as alcohol or caffeine after eating a fatty meal?<br /><br />JoeBJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16741889795241249095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-73010866894578695422009-04-24T10:49:00.000-06:002009-04-24T10:49:00.000-06:00I keep coming back and reading this post. I do hav...I keep coming back and reading this post. I do have one question regarding your very first sentence. <br /><br />I'm not convinced that all liver glycogen must be depleted to start burning fat. From my reading, I have been led to believe that fasting or low-carb diets induce insulin resistance in the muscles, which switches them to burning fat, which preserves liver glycogen for the brain. Which would indicate that stores of glycogen in the liver do not have to be exhausted for fat burning to begin.<br /><br />It is this muscular insulin resistance that causes high fasting blood sugar readings in those following ketogenic diets, and why such a person must ingest around 150 g carb / day for 3 days before testing fasting glucose in order to get an accurate read on how one's body handles a glucose surge.<br /><br />Peter at hyperlipid provides insights in his posts on physiological insulin resistance (look for these post under his labels section).<br /><br />Thoughts?<br /><br />Scott WScott Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10687098328064801055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-1164621588225508142009-04-21T06:23:00.000-06:002009-04-21T06:23:00.000-06:00Wow! Definetely one worth bookmarking. Thanks.Wow! Definetely one worth bookmarking. Thanks.Sheryl Blystonehttp://www.msmusclesfitness.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-46785120989251736452009-04-20T13:07:00.000-06:002009-04-20T13:07:00.000-06:00John:
Yes the fructose in fruit should be similar...John:<br /><br />Yes the fructose in fruit should be similar to that in sugar except it's got a higher ratio of fructose to glucose (i.e. maybe 70-85 % fructose). However, there's not actually a lot of fructose in most fruit. A 355 mL can of soda pop has 22 grams of fructose and 17 grams of glucose, whereas a 100 g apple has 6 grams of fructose and 1.5 grams of glucose. So one can of pop is 3.5 apples worth of fructose. Fruit is mostly water and fibre. <br /><br />I typically average two servings of fruit a day, likely a cup of berries and either an apple or a grapefruit. I think the liver can handle more than that, however. The only fruit I tend not to eat is the banana.Robert McLeodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270962906437456350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-16688893528398171002009-04-19T15:05:00.000-06:002009-04-19T15:05:00.000-06:00Thanks for a great article (I came from Stephan's ...Thanks for a great article (I came from Stephan's blog). <br /><br />Do you by any chance know whether fructose has the same effect when it is ingested as fruit as when it is isolated?Blinds Expresshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05570203270236250545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-37501934373847483272009-04-19T11:57:00.000-06:002009-04-19T11:57:00.000-06:00Here is another article talking about the use of M...Here is another article talking about the use of MCTs in the diet causing liver fibrosis. I posted it on one of my blogs.<br /><br />http://weightytalk.blogspot.com/2009/04/nonalcoholic-fatty-liver-disease-new.htmlpootihttp://www.todayiatea.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-46066163917676814312009-04-18T13:31:00.000-06:002009-04-18T13:31:00.000-06:00Scott:
On the question of fat absorption, it's my...Scott:<br /><br />On the question of fat absorption, it's my understanding that lipids go pretty much straight from the small intestine to the lymph system and then into your veins in fairly short order. Insulin will generally remain elevated for around six hours after eating carbs, whereas <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chylomicron" REL="nofollow">chylomicrons</A> (a type of lipoprotein) are plucked pretty quickly out of the blood stream. However when insulin is high, those hunks of fat are going to go into adipose instead of muscle. <br /><br />On the topic of glycogen stores, the body always tries to maintain an emergency reserve. Carbohydrate is much less energy dense than fat but can be burned faster and hence generate more muscular power (power in the engineering sense of energy over time). The switch from insulin to growth hormone shuts off protein and glucose burning before you consume all of your carbohydrate reserves.<br /><br />I think the only way to burn up that emergency reserve would be to engage in endurance exercise near the lactate threshold. "Intense" exercise can easily be fat burning, using creatine stores for bursts, depending on your definition of the word. <br /><br />donny:<br /><br />I'm not sure where you're going with your final paragraph.Robert McLeodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270962906437456350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-40782712873227874522009-04-18T10:00:00.000-06:002009-04-18T10:00:00.000-06:00If all fat had to go past the liver rather than th...If all fat had to go past the liver rather than through the lymphatic system, fat consumption might be as dangerous to the liver as sugar is. There's a case study where MCT oil, which is processed in the liver rather than the lymphatic system, caused fatty liver in a kid on the ketogenic diet for epilepsy.<br /><br />http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1779080<br /><br />The fat/glucose segregation might break down. If muscle and other non-central tissue were satisfied by dietary fat, and put out less of a hormonal demand for more calories because of this, why would they put out more insulin receptors and demand to be fed?donnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02107555662488785352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-2850360563649918932009-04-18T00:09:00.000-06:002009-04-18T00:09:00.000-06:00Excellent post.Excellent post.Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03181442844616803097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-23966061410145583892009-04-17T23:11:00.000-06:002009-04-17T23:11:00.000-06:00This is the very first time I've checked in on thi...This is the very first time I've checked in on this blog but I'll be back. And you may have addressed these questions in the past, so feel free to ignore. But...<br /><br />Eating carbs/fats simultaneously is bad: Is it possible that the carb-induced insulin peak is subsiding before the fats hit the circulation since glucose enters the bloodstream directly from the small intestine but most lipids cycle through the lymph system (or so I've been led to believe)? That would seem to naturally space out the two macronutrients.<br /><br />And by the way...I wonder why most fats have to do that?<br /><br />Secondly, don't the levels of muscle glycogen play a role here as well? My understanding is that when glucose arrives, the liver gets first priority. Then the muscles refill their glycogen stores. Then the rest is available to build adipose tissue. So engaging in glycogen-burning exercise (intense) or undergoing long enough periods carb-free (for muscle glycogen to inexorably diminish [along with liver glycogen]) can assist in increasing a person's carb tolerance / ability to keep burning fat even while storing away glucose/glycogen.<br /><br />In fact, I think the cyclical ketogenic diet is built on this principle.<br /><br />Again, great technical detail, which I love, and I appreciate the time that you have put into this. I arrived here from a link in Stephan's blog.<br /><br />Scott WScott Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10687098328064801055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13900197.post-35146061037453083792009-04-17T22:37:00.000-06:002009-04-17T22:37:00.000-06:00I found your blog through Chris at Conditioning Re...I found your blog through Chris at Conditioning Research.<br /><br />(Chris I'm not stalking I promise...but you say liver and I'm there like a duck on a june bug! ;) )<br /><br />Nice post. Thanks for that!pootihttp://www.todayiatea.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com